Hearing of the Social Security Subcommittee of House Ways and Means Committee on Social Security Administration of Ticket to Work Program - Transcript

Federal News Service March 18, 2004 Thursday

Copyright 2004 The Federal News Service, Inc.
Federal News Service

March 18, 2004 Thursday

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE SUBJECT: THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION'S MANAGEMENT OF THE TICKET TO WORK PROGRAM

CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE CLAY E. SHAW JR. (R-FL)

WITNESSES: PANEL I: BENJEARLENE NELSON, TICKET TO WORK PARTICIPANT , WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA, ACCOMPANIED BY RON RATTAY, GULF STREAM GOODWILL INDUSTRIES INC.; CHARMAINE TERI HANCOCK, TICKET TO WORK PARTICIPANT, NEWNAN, GEORGIA;

PANEL II: MARTIN H. GERRY, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, DISABILITY AND INCOME SECURITY PROGRAMS, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION; TROY R. JUSTESEN, ED.D., ACTING DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, OFFICE OF SPECIAL EDUCATION AND REHABILITATION SERVICES, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION;

PANEL III: SARAH WIGGINS MITCHELL, CHAIR, TICKET TO WORK AND WORK INCENTIVES ADVISORY PANEL; THOMAS P. GOLDEN, MEMBER, TICKET TO WORK AND WORK INCENTIVES ADVISORY PANEL; PAUL J. SEIFERT, SOCIAL SECURITY TASK FORCE, CONSORTIUM FOR CITIZENS WITH DISABILITIES; TOM FORAN, VICE PRESIDENT, INTEGRATED DISABILITY RESOURCES, INC., BLOOMFIELD, CONNECTICUT; QUINTIN M. MITCHELL, DIRECTOR, VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION SERVICES, RICHMOND AREA ARC, RICHMOND, VIRGINIA; SUSAN WEBB, ARIZONA EMPLOYMENT NETWORK ASSOCIATION, PHOENIX, ARIZONA; JOHN COBURN, STAFF ATTORNEY, HEALTH AND DISABILITY ADVOCATES, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

LOCATION: B-318 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:

REP. CLAY E. SHAW, JR. (R-FL): Good morning. Today our subcommittee will examine the Social Security Administration's management of the Ticket to Work program. The Ticket to Work and Work Incentives Improvement Act was signed into law in December of 1999. The goal of this landmark legislation is to remove barriers and increase incentives for individuals with disabilities to seek work. These incentives empower beneficiaries with choices of job training and placement services.

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REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R-AZ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, let me thank the witnesses. Just a couple of questions, and we appreciate the testimony.

Ms. Nelson, do you have any piece of advice for others who are receiving benefits who are just now thinking about getting back to work? Is there anything that's just really important for people to remember as they take a look at this Ticket to Work program?

MS. NELSON: I think that it's very important that they look at the Ticket to Work program also-that it will also protect their benefits, their medical and any-I mean, it's there for you to use the Ticket to Work so that you don't have to worry about your benefits or your medical. So that's one thing that's very important if they decide to use the Ticket to Work, they don't have to worry that their medical will be taken away from them.

REP. HAYWORTH: So the real thing is to emphasize the message and expand it.

And that leads me to Ms. Hancock, my fellow broadcaster. I worked in TV and many a TV news director said I had a face for radio. Maybe that's how I ended up in the Congress. (Laughter.) But I think we get into the real challenge we're confronting today with these hearings because, as our colleague from Maryland pointed out, we passed this program in 1999. Now, Mr. Chairman and my colleagues, witnesses and others gathered here, this is a critical time because we have the irony of some really gratifying success stories. And we appreciate the presence of television cameras here today, and yet the ability of folks to take advantage of this seems to be the real challenge to make sure the word gets out.

Ms. Hancock, I could not help but notice in your testimony your willingness, your invitation to SSA and others to take advantage of your background in broadcasting and of your story to get the message out. It's a bit unfair, but we've both been in the broadcasting business and sometimes in Washington we get involved in-I'm not here to castigate, it's just sometimes in the order of doing things we introduce pilot projects to get the word out, and sometimes things that are very laudable on the surface. But the results are projected a year or two down the road, which may be a lag time that's not at all satisfactory. As a fellow broadcaster, what is the best way to get the message to the people who are qualified for the Ticket to Work? What do you think would be the most effective means of communication?

MS. HANCOCK: I'm so glad you asked that because I do have an answer, and that answer is when people go to apply for their disability and you see your counselor there, the Ticket to Work needs to be introduced at that juncture because they need to know if-for example, if you're on short term disability, we've got a program called Ticket to Work. You don't lose anything. You don't lose your benefits, you get to work-you get a trial work period. If you can't succeed you lose nothing, you start over, disability benefits stay. If you go past the nine months then we take the Social Security away, you get back into the mainstream of life.

It's a win-win situation for all. We're helping to stop the deficit in terms of all the moneys going out to people that are not-don't really need to be on Social Security. Let's say we've got people that don't need to be on Social Security. They're there because they're afraid to come back into the workforce, or it's just plain easier not to go back to work because you're getting that money. You have some people that will stay at that safe house because they're lazy. You've got other people, such as the two people you have here, we want to get back into society. We want to do the right thing.

And if it was simply introduced when you had your review or when you had your initial interview, it's an option that's open without passing any type of legislative law. It's already there. The counselors can simply do it at that point and let you know what your options are. Many people do not read the mail. I read the mail, she reads the mail. Many people don't open the mail so the ticket goes in the drawer, the ticket goes in the trash. So to get it out you've got to have a one-on-one communication with a human being so the person will understand what the ticket is.

REP. HAYWORTH: So job one of the counselor is to bring up Ticket to Work?

MS. HANCOCK: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the benefits of Ticket to Work.

REP. HAYWORTH: Ms. Nelson, do you want to make a comment on that?

MS. NELSON: I just want to make a comment as to what she said. She's telling the truth because when I received the Ticket to Work, the first place I put it was in the filing cabinet. At the time my husband was there, I didn't read it over, I didn't think that I needed it. And nine months later when I pulled it out-and at the time I wasn't even sure if it had expired or if I was still able to use it. So I agree with her.

REP. HAYWORTH: Thank you both very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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REP. HAYWORTH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Deputy Commissioner Gerry and Mr. Justesen, thank you both for being here.

Deputy Commissioner Gerry, please extend my good wishes to Commissioner Barnhart. It was great because she came to Arizona. We had the first Tickets to Work in Arizona and if we could just say we all lived happily after, that would be delightful. But we are in, as we documented earlier, really the challenging phase from the notion of drafting a bill, seeing the good work of folks-and on conference committees, having it voted out of both houses, having it signed into law, and now implementation. And we heard from the previous panel the challenges of letting people know the word and emphasizing what's happened here.

And you touched on, in answering the question, Deputy Commissioner Gerry, about the marketing firm-or the firm that is developing a marketing strategy. But I've heard from representatives of employment networks on our next panel there's a real concern that, even with this contract, it will take at least two years for the SSA to implement a full blown marketing campaign.

Now, here's the problem we have in Arizona. We've already seen the number of ENs accepting tickets drop from 27 to just a handful, in part because there seems to be no demand. The ENs need help now. I appreciate the professionalism that a marketing firm can bring, but is there not an interim that could be taken? What can be done now to get the word out to the folks about Ticket to Work?

MR. GERRY: Thank you, Mr. Hayworth. There are things that we can do now, and there are things that we are doing now. I think it's a combination of-you mentioned the ENs that are dropping out, and it's a concern that we have. Part of it is the whole question of what beneficiaries know and the whole question of providing information and promptly to beneficiaries. It's also a potential-I think we have to look at the other problem I was just talking about with Ms. Tubbs Jones, which is that one of the things we'd envisioned at first was employment networks coming in who had contacts with beneficiaries, because they were organizations that routinely served those beneficiaries. And so the more we could bring people-employment networks that had those kinds of contacts, the more likely we'd be able to get beneficiaries. So I think it's both of those issues together.

The other thing I have to say, having worked with populations of people for many years who are being served by the program, is that there's a trust factor that we have to overcome. That the history of the relationship between the Social Security Administration and some of our beneficiary groups does not necessarily engender trust in the likelihood of what's going to happen. And we have to sell the reality of the ticket as we know it really is to people who have had reasons to be concerned about what will happen, and so we have to overcome that.

I think word of mouth is probably something that's going to have to go a long way in doing that. I think what really happens when you have those kinds of problems often is you need successes and then you need people talking to other people about the successes. So I think it's all three of those things.

And I didn't mean to suggest that we were going to wait two years to do anything about it. What I really wanted to suggest is that we're six months into a two year activity to really come up with a national marketing plan. Now, we have been doing a lot of conferences around the country, we've been doing a lot of talking to organizations.

I won't read the numbers; I'd be happy to provide them for the record. Maximus has made a lot of presentations and we have changed and I think are significantly working on our field offices. That's the place where we could have right now some significant-and it's come up two or three times already, where as we talk to our beneficiaries we could be saying more about the ticket, we could be giving out more information.

I mentioned in both my written and oral testimony that we've hired 58 area work incentive coordinators. Those are in our areas within the 10 regions that we have, and one of their major tasks is to train our staff in the field offices who come into daily contact with our beneficiaries to talk about the ticket and to answer questions about the program. That's a pretty important and probably-and ultimately one of the crucial things we need to do is just to change the culture of our field offices so that these capabilities are there.

Is it going to happen overnight? I wish I could say yes. I think where we have these people in place we see significant differences. I think that's an important strategy as well. I'd be very interested in any other specific things that we can do as we get this marketing plan. It's not that we don't have an interest in it or that we aren't willing to devote resources to it, but it's not clear to me precisely how we should do it.

REP. HAYWORTH: Well, I thank you for that. And as I was listening to you talk, I thought about a marketing slogan for a certain sports attire firm that is three words that I think is really important here: just do it. Just do it. The most basic things are here and I have to admit-because we understand Congress is a deliberative body. You talked about the trust factor. One of the problems we have is if Congress is a deliberative body, I don't know how we describe the pace of the bureaucracy. It is glacial. Despite the best of intentions, we have a glacial pace here.

So to the extent that we bring, I like to think, light and maybe a little heat from Arizona-we appreciate the efforts. But my friend Susan Webb will be on the following panel. For purposes of full disclosure, she's my friend from Arizona and obviously part of employment networks and part of the Employment Network Association in the state of Arizona. But she made this point to me earlier this morning: if Binder and Binder and other Social Security attorneys can advertise on TV day in day out over and over about getting people onto benefits, why can't the SSA advertise at least as often to get people off benefits and back in the world of work? A comment? A thought on that from either of you gentlemen?

MR. GERRY: Well, I tried to address earlier the question of television advertising, which is not without controversy and also not without expense. And I don't mean that in some penny pinching sense but as a practical matter. One of the things I hope that that we'll get are recommendations on how to do that. But it would not be difficult to spend $50 or $100 million to do ineffective television advertising.

REP. HAYWORTH: Well, maybe what I'll do is just-maybe I'll just talk to the Arizona Association of Broadcasters, saying, "Hey, if you're receiving Social Security, disabled and need to go back to work, why don't you find out about the Ticket to Work program. You can keep your medical benefits and go back to work. Contact your counselor for more information." Ta da. There it is, and it didn't take me two years to explain that and I can get that right to the Arizona Broadcasters Association. I appreciate the good efforts, and I'm not here to beat you up. I really do. I just believe we've got to get moving to get the word to folks. And I thank you.

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